Hidden Loan Features | With Tom Hallock

Hidden Loan Features | With Tom Hallock

Tom Hallock of Loan People joins the show.  We discuss the current state of the real estate market as well as some hidden loan features you should be aware of that can help you financially from a mortgage recast, loan assumptions and distressed solutions for home owners going through economic struggles.


Troy: Welcome back to Real Estate Insights with Troy Schlicker.

Today I am joined by Tom Hallock, Loan Officer, Senior Loan Officer with Loan People here in Austin, Texas. How's it going today?

Tom: I am doing great. Thanks for having me on, Troy. I appreciate

Troy: Yeah. When you get those job titles, they come and become important. Senior, it's not like you're, senior is an expert loan officer, not like loan officer to senior people exclusively for, anybody.

Tom: Yeah, I have the battle scars. It's all the wrinkles and the crow's feet from

Troy: yeah, that's what over a decade. Yeah, over a decade in the business. We'll do that to you.

Tom: yeah, I know. I always remind people I got into the actual lending piece in 2009, so things were a little weird then.

Troy: And I guess it's interesting that you bring that up, right? Like a lot of the times when I'm having conversations with people in person over the phone or through social media a lot of people just want to try to compare the current market to 2006 through 2008, and it's almost like that we have, it's almost there's no data going back further than the 2006 mortgage crash.

Real estate crash that could be a guide to how things might be going this time or down, over the next year or two. Nope, this is what happens. Real estate prices skyrocketed because of all this bad behavior, and then they come crashing back down and the everyone, loses their jobs and banks go out of business and that this is exactly how it works every single time.

And it's no, we've. Decades and decades of experience, of recessions, of the savings and loans, failures of the eighties and different kinds of things. And it doesn't necessarily mean that home prices are gonna come down 50% this year. And so it's not surprising to me that people have short memories when it comes to that, but it the same point in time.

It is sometimes. So it's, I don't know.

Tom: It is funny. Yeah. We learn lessons. Maybe we don't learn all of them, and maybe those lessons don't persist. But yeah, we've definitely, especially mortgage wise, it's just the way that mortgages are done is just night and day from previous to that time. Yeah it's hard to draw a similarity because that was so unique that of course, anytime after that is gonna be new as well, so you're exactly right.

Troy: And again, really it. And one of the things that I've, in looking at the past data would point out is that in a lot of recession periods, home prices actually rose in value. Over the last, if you look at the last. Not taking 2006 to 2008, that mortgage crisis, which you shouldn't just exclude it, but it was a unique event.

But previous to that, three of the last four recessions didn't actually see home prices decline at all. Now again, I think, it's hard to make a direct comparison to something maybe in 76 with what's happening now in 2022 and 23, because there are a lot of differences even between then and now as far as how mortgages are done.

Obviously interest rates are different and there's just a lot of different factors, but it gives us a guide to see that there are pos other possible outcomes rather than just the total collapse of the housing.

Tom: And you said something funny, which is you want even excluding that 2008, 2009, that time period that recession home prices did come down during that because that was the, one of the things that led to that whole thing. But they only came down just under 20% nationally.

So that was. Maybe the biggest decrease that we've ever seen historically. And so if that was the biggest meltdown ever, and that was the biggest decline we've ever seen, and you look at the total equity gain since then if you look at the long enough arc, real estate always makes sense. It's the short way of saying

Troy: Yeah, it's, yeah. No, it's one of those where so it's. You have the mortgage crash there and then really that the only comparison to that was the Great Depression. So you're talking almost a hundred years, 80 years between the two things. Now obviously, could something sig super significant happen earlier than 80 more years?

Obviously that's the case. It does, and it does feel to a degree that a lot of. A lot of the peaks and valleys are being a little bit more pronounced in the last 20 to 30 years, whether it's in the stock market, real estate and those kind of things. And it's not surprising to me that it's, instead of just this nice consistent 3%, 4% gains in real estate where we're seeing a lot of years where it's six or 8% gains, not even including the 30% from 2021.

But, and so if you're seeing these a little bit above average returns in real estate, you're probably, when things go back, Are negative, you're gonna probably see, five, six, 7% declines instead of one or 2% declines like you did for a lot of the sixties, seventies, and eighties when you had small declines here and there.

And so that, I think, is something too, again, based on looking at history as something you should take into consideration. But again, it's,

Tom: No, that's,

Troy: you wanna look at history, but you don't want it to make it, that's, we're not, you're rarely gonna see an absolute repeat.

Tom: that's true. And to add to what you're saying A lot of home owners who bought prior to 2020 and then were able to refinance, or even the people who re or who purchased in 2020, 2021 with a historic low rate, ridiculously, unbelievably low rate. A lot of them view. The homes that they have with that loan on it, they view the loan as part of the asset because it's such a low rate that they wouldn't let that loan go into foreclosure because it's seen as something of value.

So that's another reason why, loans were just handed out like candy 2006 to 2008, and I don't think. People really saw a value in that necessarily. They were just getting them because they could. Whereas now a lot of these loans have such a low rate that people are seeing the value in that and they're willing to hold onto properties longer, and they can, because those rates are lower as well.

Yeah, that's a really good point that it's it's so hard to make a comparison, Harrison,

Troy: No. Yeah. Like it's and I, it'll be interesting to see how foreclosures. Unemployment data still shows that unemployment's still relatively low compared to historical standards. It does feel like the fed and the government feels like they almost need, they want that to increase to help with the inflation side of things.

Which is unfortunate that they feel like it has to get to that in order to really tame inflation. And so if that does rise, obviously that could impact some people on the, on having foreclosure. Rise in value or rise in numbers, but at the same point in time, hopefully most people won't let it get to that point because like I say, unless you really bought at the peak in 2022 and then lost your job and now have to sell, okay, you're, you may be underwater at that point in time and foreclosure could be the way to go.

Even there, if you can sell it and somehow stomach the loss that is there, that might be a better option for you from a financial standpoint. For some, say I bought my house 10 years ago, if I was really gonna have to get to the point where I couldn't make the mortgage payment, I'm way better off selling my home, even though I can't sell it at the peak that it would've been about a year ago.

And if I had to sell now, great. I can't get as much as I got then, but I still get to take a ton of equity with me because when I bought it 10 years ago, it was worth about half, if not even less than what I could sell it for now. And Hopefully though the biggest, my only, my big only concern with what might prevent, might have some people go into foreclosure when they shouldn't, is just that people get paralyzed when stressors like losing your job and all those kind of things happen.

And so being proactive and talking to an a realtor, an attorney, whoever it may be, that you need to talk to a financial advisor to make sure you're doing the right things. If. That type of situation presents itself to you, will still be a huge net positive for you, even if it's something where you're not wanting to sell your home or un have the unfortunate circumstances of losing your job.

But I also think a lot of people, more and more people have had to. Qualify with two income households. And so that also, I think is another reason why you'll see fewer foreclosures because while one person might lose their job, both people, it's less likely that they lose their job. And so you can then have a few months where why you try to find a job, the other partner can keep up with the mortgage payments.

Life's not going to be comfortable if you're used to two incomes, but it's still a possible.

Tom: Uncomfortable but still possible. And a silver lining of. The timeframe that we're in is that we just went through these historically weird timeframes, 2008 covid, to where a lot of lenders have lost mitigation departments and systems set up to where they're going to in most cases.

It depends on the loan servicer, et cetera. But in most cases, they're gonna try and work something out. They're in 2008 there was such a. And it came out of nowhere that these lenders weren't prepared in those departments to deal with how much was coming in the door.

Whereas I think a lot of those systems have been refined a little bit. Lenders have found ways to, usually it's to ease their bottom line, but at the same time, if it's helping a

homeowner too, then, like you take it where you can. So it's a little, it's a silver lining. It's a weird way to look at the things that we've already been through.

But it's a good point that like there's just a little bit more of a floor.

Troy: Definitely. I know we talked about some of those things before, so I'm trying to think of some new topics to talk about. I know one of the things we had talked about brief briefly, which is something that could be beneficial to the clients these days is what's called a recast. When it gets to alone a lot of people don't realize that you could, if you have your existing.

You might, there might be a time when you're trying to buy and sell simultaneously, and it can be challenging, right? In any, it was impossible the last couple years because you couldn't, you weren't able to buy a home with doing it as a contingent offer to sell your existing home first, because there were too many offers coming in the new home that they were just gonna take a different offer.

But, Because things have slowed down somewhat. Those types of offers are potentially available again, but at the same point in time, they can still be super stressful. And a recast is a potential option that might make sense. Again, it doesn't, it has its drawbacks, like almost any situation, but it could be a situation that.

Might work to help ease that transition from one house to another house, whether you're moving across the city or across the country. But why don't you maybe give a few details about what a recast, how to take advantage of a recast.

Tom: Yeah, no, this is a great topic to jump into cuz this can come up in a lot of different scenarios. So a recast essentially. The way I phrase it to some people is you can make a lump sum payment towards the principle. So almost like a secondary down payment. And the lender, the loan servicer will re amortize your payment based on that new lower loan amount.

So you get to keep the same terms. It's not like a refinance where there are additional closing costs and it's basically a new loan. It's you're keeping the same loan and you're just re amortizing at a lower monthly payment. So you've mentioned a couple of those situations where people might use that, which.

Maybe you put less down when you're purchasing a new home. When you get the proceeds from selling your old home, then you can apply those towards the mortgage and lower that monthly payment. And a lot of times if you have mortgage insurance when you first closed on the purchase, you can remove that concurrently when you're doing that recast as well.

So there's a lot of cool ways to use it including, some people have seen if they're in a home and they have a big lump sum of money, Which happens, it's fun to pontificate about that. A big lump sum of money coming in. But they'll use it to just lower their monthly payment.

Maybe they're thinking about paying off the loan but they're not sure if they're gonna need some funds in the future. You can pay it down how that payment re amortized and then you have a lower monthly payment, you're, it's less to worry about.

Troy: Talk about lump. Potential. I could also see where if you've got, especially if you had a loan from a year earlier, right? So you have that rock bottom rate and you wanna try to hold onto that as long as possible. If you maybe have a property and you moved from another property and you started to rent.

The old property out, which was a smaller property, but now a year or two in, you're like, Hey, I don't like being a landlord anymore. I wanna sell this property. You could sell it and then take, that's a, an area where you might get a lump sum of money coming in that you're like, Hey, let's apply this soy mortgage and lower my monthly mortgage payment.

And that would be a great way to do it because then you can keep that 3% interest rate instead of if you were to refinance it now you have to go to today's interest rates six, six and a half, 7%, which is obviously not near as ideal. If you happen to. Retire and you gotta, some money, lump some money from retirement or a big bonus, if you really got a big bonus.

Now, recasting is not generally something you can do regularly. Most of the time, as far as I know, you can only kinda do it once, so you wouldn't want to just do it for a bonus this year and then have a bonus coming up next year that you wanna. Want to do it too as well. In that case, you're probably just better paying it down to principle and paint it off that way.

But I say if there's some reason that you were to come into some money from selling another real estate property from getting a random bonus here in Austin, Texas, it could be that you're part of a startup and your startup gets bought out by another company and you get again, Your pro, you may not.

Not all startups exit strategies end up with them getting millions of dollars, but it might mean you get $150,000. That might be something worth applying to your mortgage because of your startup exit. That would help lower your monthly payment and keep that interest rate nice and low for you.

Tom: No. Exactly. And there's so many great uses for the recast that it's Talking about some of the common ones, one that I've heard people reach out about recently a lot is aging in place where someone knows they're moving to a fixed income, but their monthly payment is too high versus what their fixed income is gonna be, but they have maybe a lump sum in a retirement account, and they're thinking about using all of it to pay a mortgage off.

You can play with it a little bit and say, all right, where would my monthly payment be comfortable? Maybe you don't need to spend all that money in your retirement account to pay it down to a manageable amount monthly. Just keep more money in your pocket as, going through a life change like retirement or something like that.

So there's so many different uses. It's a really great thing that most conventional mortgage loans, almost all conventional mortgage loans have built into them. And that's it's an additional thing on top of if and when a refinance might be right. Which a refinance is just, it's basically a new loan paying off the old loan at the current market rates.

So that's, That could be a benefit to do a refinance if rates come down from where they are or from what you have. But in the market we're in, as and as we're talking about, a lot of people who already have mortgages, rates are probably a little bit higher than when they close. So doing

Troy: or a lot

Tom: is is a way to maintain that.

Troy: No, and it's again, it goes back to what I've been saying I feel like on a lot of these podcasts is go out and talk to some experts, right? Like most people don't realize. And even if you're listening to this podcast, unless you need to do a recast today, you're probably not gonna remember it in six months to a year when you need to.

But hopefully you can remember that, hey, I'm thinking about, this is something I'm thinking about cuz we got this large lumps of money in. I'm thinking maybe I should refinance. We'll go out beforehand. Before you start the process of that and talk to a lender and talk to a good, trusted lender, because guess what, as a lender, you don't get paid when someone does a refi a recast.

But you do get paid when someone does a refinance. So if you just go to any lender and are start the refinance process side of things, most of them are just like, oh, you wanna refinance? Great. I can do that for you. They're not necessarily gonna go through the other steps that might save you money in the long run because, oh, great, I get to make a commission.

But if you have someone that you've talked to in the past that you know and trust and are able to say, Hey, what are my options? Then they might be more. Again, if it's someone you know and trust, hopefully they would even stop you in the middle of the refinance and be like, Hey, so what? We're just trying to pay this down.

Let's go do a recast and save you money, save you the closing costs, and save you on the interest rate and all these kind of things. But, Again, it's a huge, I would love I love the fact that real estate, even Morgan being a mortgage loan officer is a little bit more challenging as far as getting into, but being a real estate agent isn't that hard, which is great for people to get in and potentially have a really good career as a real estate agent.

On the downside, it means that sometimes they're not always the brightest and know all the small details about being a real estate agent that are important for people. And sometimes you get people who think of. And sometimes you get people who are out for their best interests instead of their client's best interests.

And so that unfortunately gives us a bad rap sometimes. But at the same point in time, as a customer, as a homeowner, you need to do some due diligence to make sure that you're dealing with people that you can know and trust their opinions, that they have your best interests at heart rather than just their.

Tom: No, you're exact. Exactly spot on. Cuz there is and you know this better than anybody since you've been in lending and you're in on the real estate or realtor side now is. Everybody, it's easy to think oh, it's real estate, right? You just, there's the house, you get the loan, and that's the end of it, right?

But really there's infinite. Possibilities. There's so many different things that can go wrong. There's so many things that can go right, like we're talking about. Maybe you already have a tool built into what you have, like a recast built into a conventional loan that you can take advantage of. That, of like you said, you might not get led there by, uh, other professionals if they're not actually looking out for you, your situation and what would be the best for you.

And I saw that a lot with and I think we will see that a lot. Bigger lenders that are trying to keep a big market share, they're going to be trying to refinance everybody and their mother for the next few years cuz they know there's an opportunity out there. And a lot of times what I've seen in the past is they'll say, oh, your rate's six and a half.

We can get you down to five and a half. And they won't, bring up the headline, which is you're gonna be paying four discount points in closing costs to do that. And so it's I can see that is something that might start coming up more and more often. And so to revisit the point that you said, talk with someone that you trust.

Talk with someone who may not have a vested interest in that transaction right then. And just see what they say. See if it's something that really does make

Troy: See if they have a different Exactly.

Tom: angle. Yeah.

Troy: That, and or goes back to interest rates with people, right? Like I've had so many clients both as a real estate agent and as a margin officer back in the days, and I said, I know you have two where like the only thing that seems to matter is the interest rate, right?

Oh, I can get, so I can get, whatever. You know now these days, a five and five and a half percent interest rate somewhere. That's great. I can probably get that to you too, but do you want to pay 2000, $20,000 in discount points on a $200,000 loan? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

And so but it banks know. Lenders know. Loan officers know that interest rate is what? The headline number for people and what they want to be able to, that you assume that the lowest entry rate's gonna be the best offer. And in a lot of cases it's not necessarily. Cuz in almost every case, the absolute lowest interest rate that I could have gotten, you would not have been the best interest rate for you to actually take.

Cuz being around where the market's at is usually gonna be the best because you're probably not gonna have the mortgage for the full 30 years. Even if you lived in the home for the full 30 years, you're not likely to keep that mortgage the entire.

Tom: No, that, that is such a good point. And I'm talking about that with people more often than ever because there is that sort of pull to, you see a rate that's in the fives or lower than the other rates, and that there's a cost associated with it. And if we, I have to talk with people and say what is your opinion on the market?

Here's what I'm hearing. Here's what the experts that I follow are saying. Because exactly like you said, There's I'm trying to think of the right word. There's like an, you feel like you need to get the lowest rate and that's gonna be the best thing that you can do. And there are so many cases where not paying a big amount of discount points is gonna give you more flexibility in the future.

Cuz as soon as you pay those discount points and then you close, it's a sunk cost. You're not getting 'em back. In certain cases they're tax deductible, but that's it's gone. And so if there is a refinance opportunity and you already paid however many thousands of dollars to get that, Then it's already paid.

It's yeah it's one of those things that like talking through it, making sure you're talking with a human about it and accounting for your situation. Cuz like you said, I have a lot of people who have a life change on the horizon and it won't make sense to, to pay a bunch of points up upfront.

Troy: Yeah, no, again, esp especially with the way the economy is the people being nervous about jobs and stuff, like generally keeping cash on hand is almost always a good decision. And so again, there are can be instances where buying right down a little bit or doing paying a little bit more down payment can be good, but within reason in a lot of cases.

So it's something. You again, wanna make sure that you're trusting the people that are helping you make those decisions. Cause they're a lot of times decisions that are not re not easily reversible, at least at the, at a bare minimum. So one of the other things, since we're talking about con some loan Loan attributes, I don't really know the word I wanna say here.

Tom: Yeah,

Troy: specific. Loan, yeah. Loan attributes is the assumability of loans. Now this generally tends to apply primarily to just FHA and VA loans.

Unfortunately, most conventional loans haven't been consumable for. For quite some time, but it's possible if people were able to buy with a VA or an FHA loan over the last few years, that the interest rate they're at is significantly less than where current rates are at. And so it could potentially make sense to try to look at assuming the current loan they have as opposed to getting a new loan for the home.

Actually, the FHA loan that I currently have on my place is an as assume is a loan that I assumed. From the owner who had for some reason bought the home about three months before they decided to sell, before they decided to move back outta state. So it was shoot, maybe I could save some money by actually just assuming their loan instead of actually going through all of it myself.

And that's what I did and I saved some money. So that was a good thing. But today like today with rates currently at. 6%, 7%, 8% for interest rates. If someone were to come in and try to assume my loan, which I don't actually know if you can assume a loan a second time, so I do not know about that.

But if someone was able to, now obviously they'd have to put down a large down payment because my loan to purchase price is not close to the three and a half percent that you would normally do on FHA loan for, but they could get a 3.25% interest rate on. Loan instead of having to pay five, six, or 7% interest rate for the same loan.

So that would be a huge savings to somebody by being able to do an consumable FHA loan for them.

Tom: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you nailed all the aspects of that, which is most conventional loans are not going to be, but it's always good to I feel like we say this every time, reach out to your servicer, see what is available on your loan. Because yeah, if you have an f h A or a VA loan, that could be a tool.

If you're looking at selling, that could be a tool to market it to people, because like we mentioned earlier, Having that low of an interest rate on an existing property is part of the asset in some cases. And so if you can provide that asset to a buyer, then that might be able to get you more of a top dollar for on the sell side.

Have you had that come, I feel like I, I hear it brought up a lot. Have you had it come up with a specific client yet? I feel like I've talked with people about it,

Troy: No, I just, I feel like most of the, more recent, again, here in Austin, most of the more recent last couple years, FHA loans were hard to do and so it was hard, like you didn't have a lot of people with FHA loans that could be assumed. In my experience, what I have seen more of. Some seller financing, which I think that would be intriguing because depending on how you, how the seller actually does it I'm curious if the seller, I obviously, so seller financing work in a lot of different ways, but the seller, if they own the home free and clearer than they probably are already switching title and stuff over.

But if you have. If the seller has a mortgage on the property, you could maybe do seller financing at a little bit higher rate than your mortgage, have the new homeowner paying you. Most of that money goes to pay your mortgage. You get a little bit of additional income that way. I don't know exactly how they would set that up specifically, but I am starting to see more seller financing out there because again, one, you have people that are like shoot, might as well do seller financing.

5% return on my money from this house that way, that's better than me putting that money into a savings account. And then the new homeowner would actually save money on interest rate versus the six or 7% they'd have to pay in an actual mortgage interest rate. So it'd be interesting to see on some of those deals how exactly they've been structured, both then from a title perspective and from a financing perspective and what the current mortgage on the property and stuff is.

That's something that, that I'm starting to see a lot more of, way more than we did, for the last 5, 6, 7 years.

Tom: Yeah. And I, yeah, and I could definitely see that too, cuz obviously if the seller is willing to do seller financing, they probably want more than what? In 2020? 2021. They wanted more than a 3% return or whatever it was. And now, Getting a 5% return is better than a market mortgage rate. So yeah, that, that's exactly

Troy: Because then the 0.5% you're getting from Bank of America.

Tom: right. No, exactly right. Oh man.

Troy: No, it's, yeah, say so there. Yeah, there just sort a lot, there are a lot more options out there than I think a lot of people realize. Again, a lot of people don't always realize you don't have to put 20% down. That. And then the two biggest things I think, especially for first time home buyers, again, if you bought a home a few times, you probably have a better, little bit better understanding.

But even then, a lot of times you don't know about re casting, you don't know about some of the intricacies of seller financing as assumed loans. But for a lot of people, they think, oh, I've gotta put 20% down. And or the they, oh, I, if I'm a first time home buyer, down payment assistance is the way to go.

And again, a lot of times that's not the case. And so you. If you think you have to put 20% down, you may be spending months or years trying to work to get that amount of money to put down when you could have bought a home two years ago when homes were at a better price, when issue rates were lower by putting 5% down and getting, starting to build that equity rather than waiting to try to get 20% down.

And so again, it's another reason. I highly recommend talking to people who are a part of the industry that you trust to give you sound advice. So that way then you can still make the right decision for you. Maybe the right decision still to try to save my and get the 20% down. But a lot of times people just don't know what they don't know.

Tom: Yeah, no, that's true. And I know some people that are just so averse to paying monthly mortgage insurance and on conventional loans it's removable and so it's something that can come off over time. Your payment could go down because of that. There's also, in rare cases, I've had this come up where if someone doesn't wanna pay monthly mortgage insurance, which is what you pay when you're putting less than 20% down, you can pay that in a lump sum at closing.

So maybe the seller's giving you a big credit, and in a way, you just are having the seller pay that mortgage insurance, and so you won't have that as part of your monthly payment. So there's lots of little toggles you can do to set up a transaction a little bit different that might make it make more sense for you right now, like you said, instead of waiting months, years, whatever it is, until the market's gonna be completely different and you may have missed out.

Months and years of equity gain

Troy: Yeah, like again, I guarantee there were plenty of people that could have bought in 2020 that maybe now got priced outta the market in 20 21, 20 22, and 2023, because they were waiting on something. And again, everyone's situation is different. Not that there's plenty of people. Would've liked to have bought, but just couldn't, for different reasons as well too, but it's why it's valuable to have a plan in place, but also know what your options are.

Because if you don't know what your different options are, it's hard to truly be making the right decision.

Tom: Definitely. Yeah. And I'm seeing a lot more we're talking a lot about owner occupied buyers. I'm seeing a lot more investors dip their toe back into the market as rates went up. I, a lot of them just put it on hold, said, I'm out for now. But now I think they're seeing that the, because prices haven't been rocketing up like they were for so many years, they're starting to see okay, maybe I can get a deal in this market.

Even though rates are a little higher, they just have to do that math on it.

Troy: Yeah, maybe I can find a deal. Maybe I can because rental rates have stayed relatively high, they can still see me, see it make sense in, in that regard. And then have, again, have they have more negotiating power? They have the potential of low balling somebody and maybe getting somebody to say yes because their situation, if they just lost their, if they're putting on the market cuz they lost their job, maybe they're willing to take that low ball offer type of thing.

Tom: Yeah, you never know until you try. And then, speaking of loan attributes, like we were talking about before in a lot of cases, a conventional mortgage loan. I get this question a lot from investors, which is can I buy it in an LLC because an investor wants some protection and Jeff. While you can't close in an LLC on a conventional residential mortgage loan there are provisions, attributes of the loan that in some cases allow them to transfer it to an LLC post-closing.

Again, depends on that person's situation. Depends on the LLC, but that is like a tool that people can use where it's, they might still be able to get that protection from an LLC, but also be able to get the best rate they can doing a residential mortgage loan.

Troy: Yeah, not a lot of good stuff. It's been, yeah, again, surprising. We always try to have a little bit of a game plan when we go into these and I was say like, ah, I'm sure we'll be able to find stuff to talk about. And of course, we only really hit on like maybe two of the five topics that we had thought about talking about today.

Tom: Of course.

Troy: it's always, again, when you enjoy the work that you do, it's easy to talk about it. So that's a good thing for both of us.

Tom: No definitely. And it's always fun talking with you about this stuff, just cuz I, you have such a great depth of knowledge. So it's always fun to dive into this stuff. So thank you, Troy.

Troy: Appreciate it. Nah great having you again, and g definitely looking forward to doing it again soon.

Tom: Absolutely. Thank you.

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